Crossing the Divide
(Latter-Day) Saint and Southern Baptist
My sojourn among Southern Baptists and Latter-day Saints. (Differences of opinion are welcome. But please keep all comments civil.)
Saturday, June 7, 2025
Wednesday, March 31, 2021
Arch Apothegms
From 2008 to 2014 I served as a tour guide and park ranger at the Gateway Arch in St. Louis, MO. At the time I had started a blog based upon that experience. As with most of my blogs, I didn't stick with it. In an effort to consolidate things here are some of the posts from that blog.
What is an Apothegm?
March 7, 2009
According to Dictionary.com an
“Apothegm” is “a short, pithy, instructive saying; a terse remark or
aphorism.” The purpose of Arch Apothegms is to turn some of the more
“interesting” comments and questions I’ve overheard asked at the Gateway Arch
into “instructive sayings”.
Apothegm #1
May 12, 2009
“You have to go down to go
up.” So many times in life we must humble ourselves in order
to rise higher. Providence has a way of knocking us to our knees (if not
flat on our backs) before He is able to lift us to higher heights. Jesus
said, But many that are first shall be last; and
the last shall be first. (Matt 19:30);
and, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little
children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of
heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom
of heaven (Matt 18:2-4). So, apparently you DO have to go down to go
UP!
Arch Apothegm #2
May 13, 2009
“Didn’t there use to be a
restaurant up here?” No. There has never been a restaurant at
the top of the Gateway Arch. Just because you believe something is true,
doesn’t mean it is true. Truth is absolute and eternal. Truth never
changes. What we believe to be true may change, but truth itself never
changes. It is our responsibility as rational human beings to always search for
truth. We must never give up or be content when we think we have it–because we
may be wrong. Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man
comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6). If his statement is
true then we can also say that “truth” is a person.
Arch Apothegm #3
May 13, 2009
“Hurting people, hurt
people.” Sometimes people are mean because they are miserable.
Since they are miserable, they want everyone around them to be miserable.
It is our choice to let them make us miserable or not. “If your
enemy is hungry, give him food to eat; if he is thirsty, give him water
to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head, and the
LORD will reward you.” (Proverbs 25:21-22)
Arch Apothegm #4
2. Cameras and tour buses are evil.
3. It takes all kinds and they eventually come here.
4. Because you work here, you don't know what you are talking
about.
5. The Person with the tickets will always be the last person in line.
Sunday, March 18, 2018
Reconciling Friends: The Roles of Grace and Works in Salvation
Countless discussions and numerous debates have been held between Baptists and Latter-Day Saints on the role of Grace and Works in Salvation. Baptists proclaim “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” (Eph. 2:8,9.) To which Latter-Day Saints respond with “faith without works is dead also.” (James 2:26b). To complicate matters, Baptists define “Grace” as God's “unmerited favor”. Whereas LDS tend to define “Grace” as “God's enabling power”. So which is it? Is there any middle ground? I think so. Here's how.
Part of the problem lies in the fact that we tend to forge that salvation is a process.
Paul wrote,
We are saved Ephesians 2:8
We are being saved.
For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 1Cor 1:18
We will be saved.
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. Romans 5:9-10
When we talk about salvation, we to focus on one aspect of salvation rather than the whole process. Kind of like the parable of the blind men touching the elephant. They describe their experience accurately, but they are only focusing on one part of the “animal”. Southern Baptists emphasize what happens when a person trusts Christ as their Savior, and they are “saved.” Latter-Day Saints tend to focus on salvation as something that will happen after death when we receive our eternal reward.
We need to remember that Salvation is a process,
The process of salvation involves four components Regeneration, Justification, Sanctification and Glorification. Consider the following definitions, which I grew up, with from from the Southern Baptist statement of faith—The Baptist Faith and Message (2000).
A. Regeneration, or the new birth, is a work of God's grace whereby believers become new creatures in Christ Jesus. It is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, to which the sinner responds in repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Repentance and faith are inseparable experiences of grace.
Repentance is a genuine turning from sin toward God. Faith is the acceptance of Jesus Christ and commitment of the entire personality to Him as Lord and Saviour.
B. Justification is God's gracious and full acquittal upon principles of His righteousness of all sinners who repent and believe in Christ. Justification brings the believer unto a relationship of peace and favor with God.
C. Sanctification is the experience, beginning in regeneration, by which the believer is set apart to God's purposes, and is enabled to progress toward moral and spiritual maturity through the presence and power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in him. Growth in grace should continue throughout the regenerate person's life.
D. Glorification is the culmination of salvation and is the final blessed and abiding state of the redeemed. Exaltation would be the LDS equivalent of Glorification.
Though these are “Baptist” definitions. I don't think that Latter-Day Saints would find much disagreement with them (and if you do, feel free to comment).
For the purposes of this document, I'm not going to comment much on Regeneration. Suffice it to say that both LDS and Baptists believe that this is a necessary component of salvation. I hope to revisit “regeneration” in a future essay.
JUSTIFICATION
When Baptists talk about being “saved” they are talking about Justification. And they see no room for our works in the work of Justification. Justification is completely the work of the Holy Spirit. When a person repents of their sins and commits their life to Jesus Christ. The sins of that person are whisked through time and imputed to Christ on the cross. The righteousness of Christ is then imputed onto the person committing their life. That person is declared “not guilty” by God. At this moment the person is “saved” (in Baptist terms).
Here are a few examples from the New Testament.
For by grace (God's unmerited favor) are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9
If you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart k that God raised Him from the dead, l you will be saved. One believes with the heart, resulting in righteousness, and one confesses with the mouth, resulting in salvation. Romans 10:9-10
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; Romans 3:23-25
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Romans 4:3-5
He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake* alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. Romans 4:20-25
Baptists do not believe that any human works play a role in our justification. It is completely based on faith and grace (God's unmerited favor). But some might object. What about repentance? The act of faith? The act of commitment to Christ? Aren't those works? A Baptist would typically say “no they're not.” But lets say for the sake of argument, that they are a type of human work. Those “works” are being done in response to something that God is already doing in the persons life. They repent, because the Holy Spirit has convicted them. They commit in response to God's invitation. They exercise the faith that God gave to them. (Matt. 13:11; 1 Cor. 12:9). So, even if you believe that faith and repentance are acts of human effort, they are still only possible in response to what God has already done in a persons life. And outside of the possible works of repentance, faith, commitment (if they really are “works”) there is no room for human works in the doctrine of Justification.
But what about all of those verses of Scripture that seem to indicate that works do indeed play a role in our salvation? Let's move on to Sanctification and Glorification.
SANCTIFICATION is the experience, beginning in regeneration, by which the believer is set apart to God's purposes, and is enabled to progress toward moral and spiritual maturity through the presence and power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in him. Growth in grace should continue throughout the regenerate person's life.
Baptists certainly believe that our works play a role in our Sanctification. And though they define “grace” as “God's Unmerited Favor” in Justification. They can certainly affirm the LDS emphasis of grace as “God's Enabling Power” in our Sanctification. Let's go back to Ephesians 2:8-9 and on to verse 10.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Eph. 2:8-10)
We are “saved” for the purpose of good works.
Philippians 2:12 tells us to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world. (James 1:27)
In the parable of the Talents and the Barren Fig Tree, Jesus certainly indicates that God expects us to bear fruit and use that talents that God has given us for him in his glory. And Jesus makes it very clear in the parable of the Vine and Branches (John 15:5) that we CANNOT do any good works WITHOUT Him.
1 Cor. 12:27 tel1s us we are the body of Christ.
Teresa of Avila siad ““Christ has no body now but yours. No hands, no feet on earth but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses all the world. Yours are the hands, yours are the feet, yours are the eyes, you are his body. Christ has no body now on earth but yours.”
As we do the works of Christ through God's enabling power, we become more like Christ. We become sanctified.
And one day we will be rewarded for those works in our Glorification.
GLORIFICATION
Glorification is the culmination of salvation and is the final blessed and abiding state of the redeemed.
Certainly Baptists agree that we will be rewarded for our works. Paul makes this very clear in 1 Cor. 3:11-15
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Jesus describes the role our works play in Glorification in the Parable of Sheep and Goats (Matt25:31-46)
Not only are we rewarded for our works, but there also seems to be levels of punishment for evil works. Jesus said, “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city. Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in* sackcloth and ashes. But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.” (Luke 10:12-13)
So to summarize up to this point. Baptists believe that we are Justified only by God's Grace (Unmerited Favor). Human works (other than possibly faith and repentance if you want to call those works) play no role in our Justification. However works play an essential role in our Sanctification and Glorification and those works would not be possible without God's Grace (Enabling Power).
So, once we blind men get a glimpse at the whole elephant of salvation, we see that we have much more in common than we have disagreement when it comes to the roles of Grace and Works in our Salvation.
But, before we conclude, I need to mention two significant differences between Baptist (especially Southern Baptist) and LDS understandings of Salvation.
1. Baptists believe that everyone who is “justified” has access to God the Father in their Glorified state. An eternity in the Terrestrial Kingdom would be ultimately incompatible with Southern Baptist Soteriology (Soteriology=doctrine of salvation). Baptists believe that everyone who has committed their life to Christ, will one day have eternal access to God the Father (Romans 5:1; Hebrews 4:16; Revelation 7:9-17)
Here's an illustration. Say, the Godhead was putting on a concert. The only way to get into the arena is through Christ. Christ is your ticket. You have to put your faith in Christ. That gets you into the arena. Once inside you can upgrade your seats, based upon your righteous works. So, some will sit closer to the stage than others. But everyone gets a backstage pass and tickets to the meet and greet. Everyone has access to the Father, even though they might not be in immediate proximity to Him.
2. Southern Baptists also believe that once a person is Justified, it is impossible for them to lose their salvation.
My asheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which agave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. (John 10:27-29)
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Romans 8:29-30)
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: The Bible also talks about different crowns we may receive in heaven. (Philippians 1:6)
But what about the folks we all know who professed faith but fell away. Their example seems to disprove the notion of eternal security (the idea that you can't lose your salvation). John seems to provide the answer for that, “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.” (1 John 2:19)
There is much more to say about the doctrine of Eternal Security. But that will have to wait for another time (or perhaps the comment section!)
In conclusion, I think it's safe to say that Baptists and LDS have much more in common in our Soteriology than we may have though at first. But there are a few significant differences. Like I like to say, the divide between LDS and Baptist theology isn't really that wide. But it sure is deep in some places! Look forward to reading your comments.
Saturday, December 23, 2017
Jack-O-Lanterns, Santa Claus, and Easter Eggs: Transformational Christianity and the Holidays
My Path to the Pageant
Friday, August 11, 2017
Rethinking Joseph Smith Jr.
Another reason has to do with Joseph's death. History is filled with religious charlatans—men and women, deceivers, who claimed to have “the truth”. Their movements make a big splash and then they disappear. A few create organizations that survive their deaths--Ellen G. White, Charles Taze Russel, Mary Baker Eddy come to mind. Most of these alleged visionaries lived relatively long lives and died in relative prosperity. Indeed, many of the modern day false prophets of the so-called “prosperity gospel” live in the lap of luxury with tremendous wealth. A few have gone out in a “blaze of glory” so to speak—Jim Jones, Marshall Applewhite (Heaven's Gate/Hale-Bopp) and David Koresh. Throughout history, these leaders have milked their people for their money and at times have demanded their lives. Jones and Applewhite ordered the death of their people and killed themselves. Koresh ordered his people to resist Federal agents and died with them in the ensuing inferno (some, including Koresh, died by suicide). But there is one alleged “false-prophet” that stands apart from his fellow deceivers—Joseph Smith, the founder of the LDS (Mormon) Church. How is Joseph different? He was the only one who ever died FOR his people. Tensions were high in Hancock County Illinois in 1844. Throughout their history (and for various reasons) the Mormons had a hard time getting along with their neighbors. The citizens of Illinois, which had initially provided a refuge for the Latter-day Saints, were rapidly becoming hostile to them. In June of 1844, Joseph Smith, Mayor of Nauvoo, and the city council ordered the destruction of a newspaper (the Nauvoo Expositor) critical of Smith and his leadership. The owners of the press went to the county seat, Carthage, IL, and swore out warrants for the arrest of Smith and the other town leaders. But this was not enough for many of the old citizens of Hancock county who were enraged with Smith. Years of perceived favoritism by politicians, Smith's ability to circumvent county and state laws through the courts of Nauvoo, rumors of polygamy and sexual immorality served as dry tinder for the spark that was the destruction of the Expositor press. Consider the words of Thomas Sharp, the editor of a neighboring community's newspaper, The Warsaw Signal, just before and after the Expositor incident. “ We have seen and heard enough to convince us that Joe Smith is not safe out of Nauvoo, and we would not be surprised to hear of his death by violent means in a short time. He has deadly enemies -- men whose wrongs have maddened them...The feeling of this country is now lashed to its utmost pitch, and will break forth in fury upon the slightest provocation...” “We have only to state, that this is sufficient! War and extermination is inevitable! Citizens ARISE, ONE and ALL!!! -- Can you stand by, and suffer such INFERNAL DEVILS!! to ROB men of their property and RIGHTS, without avenging them. We have no time for comment, every man will make his own. LET IT BE MADE WITH POWDER AND BALL!!!” Joseph was worried for his own life and those of his people. He was being warned that mobs were amassing and if Smith and his city councilors did not surrender the city would be attacked. Now, Smith had at his call the Nauvoo Legion a militia with over 2,000 men. He could have easily called up the Legion, fortified Nauvoo and engaged in a bloody civil war with the neighboring militias. But he did not do that. It became obvious to Smith, that he was the primary target of the legal action and the antagonism of the neighboring communities. He felt that if he were to leave town things would calm down and the residents of Nauvoo would be safe. So he left for the west. He didn't get very far when a delegation of leaders from Nauvoo sought him out. Some of his followers thought he was deserting them, others accused him of cowardice. Smith is reported as saying, “If my life is of no value to my friends, it is of no value to me.” Smith did return, assisted in the disarming of the Nauvoo legion, surrendered to officials in Carthage and was murdered at the hands of an angry mob in Carthage, Illinois on June 27, 1844. Smith reportedly made another comment as he was preparing to leave for Carthage, “I am going like a lamb to the slaughter, but I am as calm as a summer’s morning I have a conscience void of offense toward God and toward all men.” Some witnesses dispute that Joseph ever said these things. They argue that Smith was confident he would again escape from the long arm of the law. But given the warnings of Thomas Sharp and the Warsaw Signal, he had to know that if the mobs were to get a hold of him, he would be lynched. And that is what happened. Yes, Joseph had a gun, and yes, he used it (as I think any of us would if we were in his situation). Was he a martyr for his faith? Scholars can debate that. But when faced with impending doom, he didn't order his followers to kill themselves or to fortify the city and prepare for battle, he did what he thought he needed to do to save his people, not just his own skin, which is pretty odd behavior for a huckster don't you think. As a matter of fact I can't think of any other known “false-prophet” in the history of Christendom who sacrificed himself for his people.